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	<title>Comments on: Citizens Party, part II</title>
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		<title>By: Rand</title>
		<link>http://www.greaterdemocracy.org/archives/466/comment-page-1#comment-963</link>
		<dc:creator>Rand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 May 2006 03:39:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://wordpress.greaterdemocracy.org/archives/466#comment-963</guid>
		<description>On the road to greater democracy there may be a place for redemocracy...

This concept is rather simple, some deatils of which obviously would need to be worked out..  basically:  The ratification authority of state and national legislation argued and packaged by the upper and/or lower houses would reside with the state or national electorate directly based on a monthly, quarterly, semi-annually, or annual balloting on proposed legislation.  Bona fide emergency legislation would be handled by the legislatures directly as needed.  States where the initiative peition is legal/lawful/permitted would be the place to start... then, once proven, moving the program national would be perhaps a little less onerous...

more at:  Redemocracy: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.autobuyology.org/car15.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.autobuyology.org/car15.html&lt;/a&gt;

To a more peaceful, rational and greener future,

Rand
redemocratist at large
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the road to greater democracy there may be a place for redemocracy&#8230;</p>
<p>This concept is rather simple, some deatils of which obviously would need to be worked out..  basically:  The ratification authority of state and national legislation argued and packaged by the upper and/or lower houses would reside with the state or national electorate directly based on a monthly, quarterly, semi-annually, or annual balloting on proposed legislation.  Bona fide emergency legislation would be handled by the legislatures directly as needed.  States where the initiative peition is legal/lawful/permitted would be the place to start&#8230; then, once proven, moving the program national would be perhaps a little less onerous&#8230;</p>
<p>more at:  Redemocracy: <a href="http://www.autobuyology.org/car15.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.autobuyology.org/car15.html</a></p>
<p>To a more peaceful, rational and greener future,</p>
<p>Rand<br />
redemocratist at large</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Lebkowsky</title>
		<link>http://www.greaterdemocracy.org/archives/466/comment-page-1#comment-962</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Lebkowsky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 May 2006 17:10:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://wordpress.greaterdemocracy.org/archives/466#comment-962</guid>
		<description>Bob, I&#039;m glad you&#039;ve come back to the concept of the National Budget Simulation. Let&#039;s find a way to build that, and the other infrastructure pieces you suggest.

I had one issue with your post, your referenct to &quot;archaic slow processes of government and politics and law enforcement.&quot; Large-scale democratic process is inherently slow. I&#039;m not sure how to get around that fact, but I&#039;d be interested in hearing your thoughts in the next post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob, I&#8217;m glad you&#8217;ve come back to the concept of the National Budget Simulation. Let&#8217;s find a way to build that, and the other infrastructure pieces you suggest.</p>
<p>I had one issue with your post, your referenct to &#8220;archaic slow processes of government and politics and law enforcement.&#8221; Large-scale democratic process is inherently slow. I&#8217;m not sure how to get around that fact, but I&#8217;d be interested in hearing your thoughts in the next post.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Keller</title>
		<link>http://www.greaterdemocracy.org/archives/466/comment-page-1#comment-961</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Keller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 May 2006 02:51:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://wordpress.greaterdemocracy.org/archives/466#comment-961</guid>
		<description>Hey Bob.  I&#039;ll never forget first meeting you, at that crazy CFP in Chicago when Jim Settle, head of the FBI&#039;s computer crime squad, inexplicably got you confused with one-legged fugitive computer hacker Justin Petersen (aka Agent Steal of the Legion of Doom) &amp; all but arrested you pending ID verification.  Good times, eh?

Anyway, I&#039;m quite looking forward to reading some of the operational details on your third party idea.  I&#039;ve got some ideas about distributed DSS software that could really open things up as well as a whole suite of distributed OSINT software (automated link analysis &amp; information extraction across a range of news sources to build a constantly growing associational database of knowledge of world events), but in any event it sounds like our visions are a lot closer than it sounded at first.  I think I&#039;d like to be involved in it, with or without my own stuff being worked on.  And I can bring a lot of my people along with me too.

Tim

ps - If you like, next time I talk to Kore I&#039;ll say hi for you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Bob.  I&#8217;ll never forget first meeting you, at that crazy CFP in Chicago when Jim Settle, head of the FBI&#8217;s computer crime squad, inexplicably got you confused with one-legged fugitive computer hacker Justin Petersen (aka Agent Steal of the Legion of Doom) &#038; all but arrested you pending ID verification.  Good times, eh?</p>
<p>Anyway, I&#8217;m quite looking forward to reading some of the operational details on your third party idea.  I&#8217;ve got some ideas about distributed DSS software that could really open things up as well as a whole suite of distributed OSINT software (automated link analysis &#038; information extraction across a range of news sources to build a constantly growing associational database of knowledge of world events), but in any event it sounds like our visions are a lot closer than it sounded at first.  I think I&#8217;d like to be involved in it, with or without my own stuff being worked on.  And I can bring a lot of my people along with me too.</p>
<p>Tim</p>
<p>ps &#8211; If you like, next time I talk to Kore I&#8217;ll say hi for you.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Steele</title>
		<link>http://www.greaterdemocracy.org/archives/466/comment-page-1#comment-960</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Steele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 May 2006 23:15:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://wordpress.greaterdemocracy.org/archives/466#comment-960</guid>
		<description>Who&#039;s in charge and how do we do it are both relevant questions.  Jock has me working on a follow-on essay that would outline how national towm meetings and networks could consolidate what can be known from open source intelligence, establishing 20-100 year strategy &quot;outcomes&quot; that are desired; break that down into 1-20 year policy directions, and then reconcile the whole thing through the National Budget Simulation.  I did a paper for Dean (never read, I am sure) on how to use the National Budget Simulation to elicit and reconcile competing views by party, individual attributes, and zip code.  By using a REAL budget, with REAL trade-offs, we can not only rapidly identify the REAL positions across the board, but also have a genuine discussion about the trade-offs, and make REAL comprimises that are in the public interest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Who&#8217;s in charge and how do we do it are both relevant questions.  Jock has me working on a follow-on essay that would outline how national towm meetings and networks could consolidate what can be known from open source intelligence, establishing 20-100 year strategy &#8220;outcomes&#8221; that are desired; break that down into 1-20 year policy directions, and then reconcile the whole thing through the National Budget Simulation.  I did a paper for Dean (never read, I am sure) on how to use the National Budget Simulation to elicit and reconcile competing views by party, individual attributes, and zip code.  By using a REAL budget, with REAL trade-offs, we can not only rapidly identify the REAL positions across the board, but also have a genuine discussion about the trade-offs, and make REAL comprimises that are in the public interest.</p>
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		<title>By: Jock Gill</title>
		<link>http://www.greaterdemocracy.org/archives/466/comment-page-1#comment-959</link>
		<dc:creator>Jock Gill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 May 2006 20:05:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://wordpress.greaterdemocracy.org/archives/466#comment-959</guid>
		<description>Tim,

Thanks for posting a comment.

Your question has been implicity answered earlier. I refer you to the comments posted on the first Citizens Party post.  I quote from a note from Tom Atlee:

Interestingly enough, the most successful (and advanced!!) recent citizen deliberative council was British Columbia&#039;s Citizens Assembly on Electoral Reform (2004, with recommendations voted on by electorate 2005). 

 For a brief description, see:

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.citizensassembly.bc.ca/public/extra/Whatis.xml&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.citizensassembly.bc.ca/public/extra/Whatis.xml&lt;/a&gt;

 For up-to-date detailed information on the idea and how it has spread (across Canada, to California, to Netherlands, etc), see Jim Snider&#039;s blog on the subject:

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.jhsnider.net/citizensassembly/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.jhsnider.net/citizensassembly/&lt;/a&gt;

 Jim is right in DC.  I get his news digest.  If you choose to go in a direction such as this, you might want to contact him.

   Jim Snider
   J.H. Snider, Ph.D.
   Senior Research Fellow
   New America Foundation
   1630 Connecticut Ave., NW
   Washington, DC 20009
   Website: www.newamereica.net
   Blog: www.jhsnider.net/citizensassembly

My own sense of the most transformational  approach to a new party would be one that  explicitly represents &quot;the people&#039;s voice&quot; as  discovered through the use of citizen deliberative councils. This party (The People&#039;s Voice Party? The American Common Ground Party?) would have only one independent plank in its platform: To convene citizen deliberative councils to find out what We The People want, and to institutionalize such councils in various ways in our political and governmental systems, as suggested in &quot;Using Citizen Deliberative Councils 
to Make Democracy More Potent and Awake&quot; 

... and elsewhere. Beyond that, all the party&#039;s positions would come from what We The People said via well-designed citizen deliberative councils (CDCs). (&quot;Well-designed&quot; is a key term here, and there is much to do to ensure that condition is met.) This party&#039;s candidates -- asserting government of, by and for the people is their primary value -- would pledge to promote those CDC-derived positions even if they personally disagreed with them, declaring that the evolving, informed, deliberative will of We The People is the sacrosanct and proper sovereign authority in a democratic society.

Tom Atlee * The Co-Intelligence Institute * PO Box 493 * Eugene, OR 97440
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.co-intelligence.org&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.co-intelligence.org&lt;/a&gt; *  
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.democracyinnovations.org&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.democracyinnovations.org&lt;/a&gt;
Read THE TAO OF DEMOCRACY * 
 &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.taoofdemocracy.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.taoofdemocracy.com&lt;/a&gt;
Tom Atlee&#039;s blog &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.evolvingcollectiveintelligence.org&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.evolvingcollectiveintelligence.org&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim,</p>
<p>Thanks for posting a comment.</p>
<p>Your question has been implicity answered earlier. I refer you to the comments posted on the first Citizens Party post.  I quote from a note from Tom Atlee:</p>
<p>Interestingly enough, the most successful (and advanced!!) recent citizen deliberative council was British Columbia&#8217;s Citizens Assembly on Electoral Reform (2004, with recommendations voted on by electorate 2005). </p>
<p> For a brief description, see:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.citizensassembly.bc.ca/public/extra/Whatis.xml" rel="nofollow">http://www.citizensassembly.bc.ca/public/extra/Whatis.xml</a></p>
<p> For up-to-date detailed information on the idea and how it has spread (across Canada, to California, to Netherlands, etc), see Jim Snider&#8217;s blog on the subject:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.jhsnider.net/citizensassembly/" rel="nofollow">http://www.jhsnider.net/citizensassembly/</a></p>
<p> Jim is right in DC.  I get his news digest.  If you choose to go in a direction such as this, you might want to contact him.</p>
<p>   Jim Snider<br />
   J.H. Snider, Ph.D.<br />
   Senior Research Fellow<br />
   New America Foundation<br />
   1630 Connecticut Ave., NW<br />
   Washington, DC 20009<br />
   Website: <a href="http://www.newamereica.net" rel="nofollow">http://www.newamereica.net</a><br />
   Blog: <a href="http://www.jhsnider.net/citizensassembly" rel="nofollow">http://www.jhsnider.net/citizensassembly</a></p>
<p>My own sense of the most transformational  approach to a new party would be one that  explicitly represents &#8220;the people&#8217;s voice&#8221; as  discovered through the use of citizen deliberative councils. This party (The People&#8217;s Voice Party? The American Common Ground Party?) would have only one independent plank in its platform: To convene citizen deliberative councils to find out what We The People want, and to institutionalize such councils in various ways in our political and governmental systems, as suggested in &#8220;Using Citizen Deliberative Councils<br />
to Make Democracy More Potent and Awake&#8221; </p>
<p>&#8230; and elsewhere. Beyond that, all the party&#8217;s positions would come from what We The People said via well-designed citizen deliberative councils (CDCs). (&#8220;Well-designed&#8221; is a key term here, and there is much to do to ensure that condition is met.) This party&#8217;s candidates &#8212; asserting government of, by and for the people is their primary value &#8212; would pledge to promote those CDC-derived positions even if they personally disagreed with them, declaring that the evolving, informed, deliberative will of We The People is the sacrosanct and proper sovereign authority in a democratic society.</p>
<p>Tom Atlee * The Co-Intelligence Institute * PO Box 493 * Eugene, OR 97440<br />
<a href="http://www.co-intelligence.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.co-intelligence.org</a> *<br />
<a href="http://www.democracyinnovations.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.democracyinnovations.org</a><br />
Read THE TAO OF DEMOCRACY *<br />
 <a href="http://www.taoofdemocracy.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.taoofdemocracy.com</a><br />
Tom Atlee&#8217;s blog <a href="http://www.evolvingcollectiveintelligence.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.evolvingcollectiveintelligence.org</a></p>
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		<title>By: Tim Keller</title>
		<link>http://www.greaterdemocracy.org/archives/466/comment-page-1#comment-958</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Keller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 May 2006 19:17:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://wordpress.greaterdemocracy.org/archives/466#comment-958</guid>
		<description>Again I&#039;ll ask the unanswered questions.  Who will be the controlling authority in this new party?  Who will be its leaders?  Who will have the power to set the agenda, make the decisions, write the platform &amp; choose the candidates on behalf of the membership?

It&#039;s all well &amp; good to wave your hand vaguely at &quot;collective intelligence,&quot; but how committed are you to using it in practice at all levels within the decision-making apparatus of the organization itself?  Do you have a proven collective intelligence model ready to install &amp; implement off-the-shelf?  Will the membership actually be engaged in making key decisions about the nature, structures, policies &amp; campaigns?  Or will we have a new set of bosses installed at the top who make those decisions for us while we&#039;re asked to just follow along on the paths they lay out for us?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Again I&#8217;ll ask the unanswered questions.  Who will be the controlling authority in this new party?  Who will be its leaders?  Who will have the power to set the agenda, make the decisions, write the platform &#038; choose the candidates on behalf of the membership?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s all well &#038; good to wave your hand vaguely at &#8220;collective intelligence,&#8221; but how committed are you to using it in practice at all levels within the decision-making apparatus of the organization itself?  Do you have a proven collective intelligence model ready to install &#038; implement off-the-shelf?  Will the membership actually be engaged in making key decisions about the nature, structures, policies &#038; campaigns?  Or will we have a new set of bosses installed at the top who make those decisions for us while we&#8217;re asked to just follow along on the paths they lay out for us?</p>
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